The Carmody Conundrum
By Lake The Posts on
As the ‘Cats face their third straight ranked Big Ten opponent with “rival” Illinois tonight the time is ripe to speculate about the future of the NU hoops program with and without Bill Carmody.
Patience is a virtue that Northwestern basketball fans not only possess, but by pain and suffering rights, we should all receive an honorary PHD from ‘ol NU. The buzz of 62-year bowl WIN drought pales in comparison to a 72-year drought of even MAKING the NCAA Tourney. On the heels of the school’s first ever 20-win season (how pathetic does THAT sound) in 2009-2010, the preseason buzz from Bilas to Katz was that our ‘Cats would get in THIS year. Now, thanks in large part to another take a number in the long deli line of bad breaks with John Shurna’s high ankle sprain, Northwestern with a loss tonight drops to 9-4, 0-3 and not a single quality win to put on the dance card board for March. Granted, it isn’t panicsville time quite yet, as we have a very friendly couple of weeks on tap that become must win after must win, but the time to go in to depth on this post is now.
Again, I’m not being an alarmist over two Big Ten losses without the services (for all intents and purposes) of arguably the guy who will go down as the best player in school history (see: separate post coming up soon). But it is time to draw the line for the Big Ten’s second most tenured coach. To me, it is NCAA Tourney or sayonara to senor Carmody. “Chicken Little” you say? Really? Let’s dive in for an explanation and rationalization.
First, let’s just say that NU makes the tournament. Clearly, you can’t let a guy go for accomplishing what will become THE story of college basketball in mid-March. Anytime you break through the equivalent of the sound barrier in sport, you should deserve to be rewarded. I really don’t think there is such a thing for NU being on the bubble this year, for most of us acknowledge, if it is close – they’ll get the nod out of human empathy alone from the committee (despite what ANY committee member would ever admit). So, for us not to get in is a sub-.500 conference season and 11 wins against what I would argue is the worst non-conference schedule of any BCS hoops conference team. Below are the key arguments for keeping Carmody for wait, wait – ONE more year:
- He will have produced the best 3-year win total in school history and the third straight post-season appearance accounting for half of our entire history of postseasons (’83, ’94, ’99, ’09, ’10, ’11).
- He runs a clean program and all of the players graduate.
- We’re competitive on a night-in, night-out basis against Top 20 teams even beating back-to-back ranked programs for the first time in school history last season.
- We return the entire starting line-up with the exception of PG Juice Thompson
- We have a first team All-America candidate who thrives in his offensive system
- Our recruiting has picked up and yet again, we’re flirting with bigger names than we’ve had in our program
- He is a phenomenal offensive X and O guy and good in-game coach
Now, here are my arguments for why, if we fail to make the NCAA Tournament, we should replace Carmody immediately following the season. Usually a program that hires a new coach is coming off of a major turnaround initiative. Their previous year record is 10-20 and it follows a disturbing downward sloping wins total trend. This is why a proactive change would be necessary. Tell me that a Big Ten vacancy with a team that has a potential first team All-American and an entire nucleus back minus a point guard isn’t an attractive job? The knock in the industry is that “you can’t win there”. I’ve had this conversation over the past 20 years with some very prominent and respected coaches. They talk about the obstacles, the reputation of the unforgiving admissions department (enter: Duke great academic smokescreen here) and how it is quietly known as the graveyard of coaching. I always would counter with Duke, Vandy, Wake, Stanford and the like and I’d lose respect from some of the coaches whose comeback was that those have a culture of success (I counter with the “yeah, but at one point they didn’t”). The point is simple – you’d have the table set for someone to come in and use year one as a way to have immediate “success” and use it as a springboard for recruiting.
I’ll give Bill Carmody this. He has taken the program to another level – from God-awful to mediocre. However, after 72 years of no dancing and having had 11 years – an eternity in today’s win-or-go-home timetable of college athletics – proactive change can be good. Let’s face it – a 51-117 Big Ten career record is something that would have any other school claiming all-time infamy for said coach. To get a pass in your 6th year when you have 2 total Big Ten wins (Carmody went 2-14 in ’07) followed by a 1-17 conference record in ’08 is unbelievable. Clearly we’ve upticked since then, but I simply don’t think the guy who went an amazing 92-25 at Princeton has what it takes to get us to that NEXT level. My primary rationale is as follows:
- You have to play great defense to win in the Big Ten (see: Purdue, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State). We are awful on the fundamentals of defense and seem to regress each year. RichRod ran a great offense, but the defense was deplorable. I feel like we’re Michigan football like in terms of the disparity – Big Ten’s leading scoring team, worst defense in the conference.
- Carmody’s lack of personnel management. While he is brilliant on X’s and O’s, he is not a good manager of in-game personnel. He goes long stretches with mismatches or worse, takes a guy who is hot out of a game for a long spell at the most inopportune time.
- Carmody’s antics on the sideline. Last game he threw his hands at Shurna in disgust after he missed a FT. His pouting and borderline unprofessional demeanor on the sidelines isn’t exactly the type of stuff “leaders” (or is it “legends”?) are made of. I have no problem with coaches riding players, but when you borderline berate them in-game on TV with your silly, whiny antics it isn’t exactly the stuff that says “I want to play for THAT coach”.
- 11 years. There is no conceivable argument that you need more time. A career record of 149-166 at NU says enough. When you peel it back and show the conference record and only once finishing better than 7th in the conference I believe you’ve been given time. During the past five seasons he is 67-71 with a pretty considerable amount of those 67 wins are against the Mt. Saint Mary’s and North Floridas of the world.
The bottom line is that I desperately want us to make the NCAA Tournament as you do. However, in the event we fall short, I would argue we make a change while the job is most marketable and bring on someone capable of getting us to that next level. Let’s hope it is a moot point and we go above .500 in the conference and make the dance. I just wanted to put my feelings out there now to get a read on what the NU hoops community thinks.
How would that fare short term with our current 3 recruits who have signed on for next year?
Would that put a damper on Shurnas senior year if some of these guys, like Tre Demps (Juice’s replacement PG) were to commit to another school?
Although I understand that we cant expect much from a freshman coming in, who else is to run the point next year? I don’t think we can underestimate how much lacking a true PG can have on a team.
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Oh and nice segue into the (leaders or is it legends)… hah that was Arrested Development-esque.
I am continually amazed at the time and effort that you put into this blog out of true passion and not as a profession. Its amazing.
aaaahhh this team drives me crazy…..Every coach in the Big Ten says Carmody is one of the best coaches in the conference. They do play well at home. But playing well and doing nothing on the road doesn’t get us in the tournament.
And honestly Northwestern isn’t assured wins vrs Indiana, Penn St, and Iowa like people think. Penn St is full of seniors and always gives the Wildcats fits…………….
Frustrated……eeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Nice article LTP
A few points:
1. I believe we’ve debated this before, but I don’t share your optimism that the committee will hand out a sympathy bid or consider anything other than a school’s objective resume. A great example of this was Davidson in 2009. Everyone obviously remembers Davidson’s great run with Stephen Curry to the Elite Eight in 2008, but many forget that Curry returned in 2009 and led Davidson to a 26-7 regular season record including a great win over West Virginia. But they lost in their conference tourney and didn’t have enough good wins to get into the NCAAs, even though the presence of Davidson and Curry would have generated a lot more excitement than whatever .500 BCS conference teams got the at-large bid instead. I’m afraid NU is going to have to earn it, and furthermore, I don’t want NU’s first ever tourney appearance tainted by talk of a “sympathy bid”.
2. If you’re going to fire Carmody, you need a strong replacement ready to go immediately. They can’t pull a Michigan and wait way too long to fire the coach and then not have a strong candidate ready to go. A guy you could likely get is Tommy Amaker, who has established himself as a strong recruiter and is currently doing an excellent job at Harvard, but they may not want to go the Ivy route again, and Amaker’s failings at Michigan are a red flag as well (also the Laettnar/Hurley urban legend was his doing as well). I also wonder if promoting Tavaras to head coach would be considered, given his recruiting prowess and his knowledge of the Princeton offense.
Any other reasonable candidates?
Glad to see a well balanced view on Carmody finally. I suppose you either believe it is reasonable that a program like NU can succeed or believe we should settle with mediocrity. In my opinion, it all starts with recruiting. Blame it on facilities… blame it on academics… that all supports we should settle for mediocrity. However, if you believe we can overcome this stuff (which I think we can, particularly with the support of Phillips and Shapiro), then I believe that we can do much better in recruiting. Some say that we have gotten better, but I’d argue that we’ve improved DESPITE of Carmody, not because of it (arguably Hardy had more to do with it). I think you rightly suggest Carmody has had many questionable in-game calls which suggest his genius at X’s and O’s is slightly in question. Don’t get me wrong, the Princeton offense is exactly what we needed to bring us to mediocrity, but I think taking the next step should not rely on a gimmicky scheme. You can’t argue with the improvement in the program. But I suppose you have to ask yourself if we are hitting the ceiling with Carmody and would another coach give us a better chance at competing at a higher level.
Agreed.
I can’t believe he left Shurna in on MSU’s free throws. Granted Green may have outrebounded someone else, but I have to think Shurna was one of the worst options. Frankly we had enough timeouts to run offense/defense subs in the last minute or so. There was one time when we doubled an MSU guard on the right sideline and then he just lobbed a pass all the way to Lucas on the left sideline but Shurna was playing there and wasn’t quick enough to make the steal! The 1-3-1 worked as it should have but we couldn’t take advantage with a hobbled Shurna.
With all of that being said though I like Carmody and hope we get to the tourney and keep him.
Brian Gregory could be a good fit for this team….
@DT: True, but I think Dayton is a better job than Northwestern right now, that community loves basketball and packs the arena every night, and Dayton’s had a lot more success than NU at the national level, could be difficult to persuade him to come.
@ Loretta 8
No doubt, Gregory has a good thing going of sorts in Dayton. Be that as it may, he is a “local” boy via Mount Prospect, a former NU Assistant, and a guy with a Big Ten pedigree via both NU and MSU. Again, all due respect to Dayton as an institution, and metro area, it ain’t home for him per se, nor is it Chicagoland or The Ten… BTN, has truly given the conference a leg up for basketball recruiting in many ways, certainly, that Mid Majors don’t have as well…
Many folks have said for years during the Carmody era, Brian, could indeed provide that earnest “next step”… Then again, maybe he knows the gig for what it is from an “inside” perspective and would not touch it for whatever personal or professional reasons…
I didnt know he was a former assistant, definitely sounds like a possibility in that case.
Shurna should not even have been in the game at the time he was injured. They were up by like what, 20+, late in the 2nd half of a game they initially led 20-0? Considering that this team has depth issues and Juice practically led the nation last year in mpg, there is no good reason for the starters to be in the game at that time, ESPECIALLY with the conference season looming.
Remember how the guys ran out of gas last year down the stretch? I think that will probably happen again this year to Juice again, since even when NU was blowing teams out in the non-conference, he was still in the game.
Blech. I’ve only been an NU fan for a few years, but I’m already sick of Carmody. He has done a lot in getting the program up to the mediocre level, but I really feel like some of the more obvious things escape him when it comes to game and player management.
You all seem to assume NU brass are not perfectly comfortable with “mediocre”. Sports do not have the same role at NU as they have in other schools … the problems start right at the top and until that mindset changes nothing will change. Proof: decades and decades of “mediocre”, frustrated players, and coaches more than willing to leave if they can! You can only BS yourself for so long …..
@NU68
I think that Former President Bienen was ok with mediocre. I wonder if Schapiro is different… Keep in mind that Schapiro was president at DII (DIII) Williams who won the director’s cup (awarded to the best overall athletic program in the division) in that division several times during his tenure. I get the impression that he would like to remain competitive in that regard in DI. When I had heard that when Carmody went through the ’07-’08 stretch of Big Ten futility, that Bienen was the thing that was keeping him in the job.
Also, is it true that Carmody’s predecessor was shot and killed while recruiting? I thought I read this somewhere, but I can’t remember.
Also, just because the Princeton offense seems like a gimmick, keep in mind successful teams like Georgetown run it and remain competitive against the Big East.
Go ‘Cats, beat Illinois!
@NU 68
You have indeed nailed the 20 million dollar question right on the head… The administration and egg heads at NU are JUST FINE, with mediocrity and top spin related to Revenue Producing Sports in Football and Men’s Hoops… The question is, do boosters and donors ala Pat Ryan, want to push the envelope in earnest, and does Schapiro have enough Chutzpah to tell the silent majority that define culture at NU, that winning, including hiring and retaining– top flight coaches in leadership positions in both Football and Men’s Hoops is not only possible, but a priority…
Until that happens? What you see is what you get related to our revenue sports, particularly under the stewardship of Bill Carmody and Pat Fitzgerald…. If one is satisfied with the upper end of mediocrity in football, and earnest mediocrity in Men’s Hoops, NU, is your place….
WCgrad, theres no way Carmodies predecessor was shot and killed – his predecessor was Kevin O’neill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_O%27Neill_(basketball)
Hey guys,
I am on pretty good terms with Morty, so I wouldn’t mind asking him what the administration’s take is on “mediocrity”, but I wouldn’t want to offend him. Does any one have a suggestion for how I could bring it up without offending the man?
@wcgrad
I think you are referring to the tragic random-violence hate-crime death of Ricky Byrdsong in 1999. By then, he was out of basketball and working for an insurance company.
@ Munj
Might I suggest asking the good Dr. Schapiro, what his take on NU not ever being in the NCAA Tournament is, and how he views a 61 year drought in terms of bowl wins… Upon that, might be interesting to ask him what he sees a person in his position being responsible for in terms of producing the the best on-field product and game experience for paying customers that the University actively pursues for participation and revenue…. If he tells you things are ok, and the pieces are in place for growth, you have The Bienen culture in tact and double down the bet on mediocrity being the rule of thumb and ultimately where the bar is set by the NU elite going forward… Might ad, D-3 and Williams College stating the obvious, is a whole different world… Maybe, Dr. Schapiro would like to investigate Men’s Hockey and Lacrosse with that background though! Could be good fits at NU!
Just don’t call it what it is …. ask him for a plan to “win” …. better … use this blog to get a form letter from 5,000 alums/season ticket holders demanding a plan to win or they withhold their annual donations and ticket purchases ….. you’d get a plan to “win” within 10 days and have it trumpeted to the heavens. It is just that simple ….
@NU 68
Paying customers, ie current season ticket holders would be the key to your plan… Obviously, the majority of NU alumni are wishy washy about revenue athletics at NU, or more would attend or donate…. I say that with a liberal sampling of Ryan Field for instance having missed one home game ( I dont’ count The Wrigley game as a home game…) since 94….
Folks that shell out the cash for tickets, alumni and otherwise, are the key to your plan the way I see it… If the money stopped coming in, the institution would move forward trying to be competitive, be it retaining best in class personnel in coaching, The Athletic Department and student athletes. Facility upgrades would take place, and a real marketing plan and budget would be in place, to position Football and Basketball as “Franchises” in the Chicago market– beyond some rudimentary highway billboards and display ads in the Tribune….
Then again, Schapiro might have liked what he saw at the D-3 level at Williams… Certainly, would not get any of that BTN/Fox or ESPN money via The Big Ten going that route….
Money talks… You are correct, NU would listen….
Morty cares a lot about athletics, at least he did at Williams. I was a student at Williams while Morty was there, and he was a huge fan of football and basketball, going to all the games. Williams was (and still is) a force at Division 3 athletics, and I’m confident he will try to build up Northwestern.
@all – I can tell you as it relates to the “administration” settling for mediocrity, you can save your question. The answer is a decisive “no.” I personally know Jim Phillips well enough to support this and also can tell you, as a sports fan, Morty Schapiro is the single-best president NU could hope for as it relates to “expect victory” and doing it the right way. He’s a sports nut and gets it as it relates to the positive role sports perception plays in to the overall case of a school. You want facts? How about the school granting the athletic department the financial support to do an unprecedented marketing campaign of this ilk. Or, the spend of nearly our head football coach’s salary on a feasability study for facilities. I expect at least a $75M-$150M plan for an overhaul of our facilities once the study is complete. We’ve got the school FINALLY in a mindset of getting what it takes to be a national player.
@LTP
Not sold, my friend….
Funny that three of the four reasons to get rid of Carmody could also be applied to Fitz:
1. “You have to play great defense to win in the Big Ten (see: Purdue, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State). We are awful on the fundamentals of defense.” No further explanation needed.
2. “While he is brilliant on X’s and O’s, he is not a good manager of in-game personnel. He goes long stretches with miss-matches or worse, takes a guy who is hot out of a game for a long spell at the most inopportune time.” First off, I wouldn’t say Fitz is brilliant with X’s and O’s. And he’s certainly proven error-prone as an in-game manager. And let’s not forget all the griping folks did when Colter (who was certainly hot at the time) was replaced mid-drive by Watkins vs. Wisconsin and Texas Tech.
3. “Carmody’s antics on the sideline. Last game he threw his hands at Shurna in disgust after he missed a FT. His pouting and borderline unprofessional demeanor on the sidelines isn’t exactly the type of stuff “leaders” (or is it “legends”?) are made of.” As I mentioned after the bowl game, Fitz sprinted onto the field to yell at a ref to get one more second added to the clock at the end of the game — at the same time his team wasted three seconds unnecessarily spiking the ball. And while I’m certainly no fan of Carmody’s pouting, is it really much more unprofessional than Fitz’s uncontrolled sprinting/chest bumping/exalting after a third-down hold by the defense? Coaches tell players all the time to act like they’ve been there before. At times, our coach treats a made field goal in the third quarter against Indiana like a game-winning Super Bowl kick. You’d be hard-pressed to find many (if any) Top 25 coaches who act like a 19-year-old player on the sideline. There’s probably a reason for that.
I’m not advocating the firing of either guy, mind you. But it was worth noting the similarities in play here.
I have often wondered why Bill Carmody himself is satisfied with mediocre?
@NU 95
All that said, and its all seemingly appropriate, why are you not advocating firing either guy?
Well, despite my posts often highlighting the negative points of Fitz (which I think a lot of folks here tend to gloss over), I do think he’s a good fit for NU from the standpoint of a recruiter and an advocate/ambassador for the program. (You could make the argument that the recruiter argument is getting shaky. After all, his best season came when a couple of Walker’s classes were juniors and seniors. But he was a star recruiter for Walker. I think seeing how the 2010 class develops into sophomores will tell a big part of the story for Fitz.) Both of these are something you need your college coach to be. And I think he’s delivered there in many respects.
I think Fitz has fallen short in the preparation/gameday element of things, of course. And I think a big issue there is that nobody — due to his legendary status at NU — seems to be calling him out on that. When Fitz threw the junior class under the bus, did anyone (the AD, the media, former players) come out and say, “Hey, wait a sec — we ALL need to be better. And it starts with the coach”? Aside from some scattered folks on this board (which, as much as we all like to spout off here, what we say doesn’t really mean anything except to the other commenters), I didn’t hear a peep.
My thought on Fitz is that he should get next year to try to straighten things up. But if the downward spiral continues (from 9 wins in 2008 to 8 in 2009 to 7 in 2010 to 6 or fewer next year), it’ll be obvious that it’s time for a change.
As for Carmody, if things fall apart this year (and, at this point, I don’t know if they will; I think folks are just overreacting to a few losses in a really tough part of the schedule), then he definitely should be fired. And he definitely should have been axed back after those two dreadful Big Ten campaigns that LTP mentioned. But since hitting rock bottom in those years, he has the team on an upward swing. If he gets the Cats to the cusp of 20 wins again and gets into the NIT, he’s earned himself another season. If he doesn’t, all bets are off.
@DT – Agree to disagree. It’s true. Mediocrity as judged by W/L will not be tolerated at NU in football and basketball moving forward.
I hear all the time about what a great X and O coach Carmody is, but I can only go by what I see. Granted, I have zero college basketball wins to my name, but it’s fair to measure any coach’s “X and O” talent in four ways:
1. When we need to get a good and quick shot, what do we run? I wasn’t impressed with any of the last three possessions we had against MSU, including one that came right out of a timeout. Sure, Juice got a layup with 12 seconds to go to cut it to one, but that possession started almost thirty seconds earlier as we jacked around in the Princeton offense instead of running an action that could get any of our best shooters (Juice, Drew, Shurna) a good three-point look.
2. Sure, the Princeton offense is good at taking advantage of overly-proud, over-playing man-to-man defenses. But how do we do and what do we do against zones?
3. Out of bounds plays…do we ever get a really good look?
4. When someone has a hot hand, do we run anything special to keep getting him the ball or do we just hope that the Princeton offense will land on his number again?
I’ll keep watching this season and I’ll keep an open mind…
Outside of Xs and Os, it’s just a yawn for me. Tavares Hardy has done an excellent job of recruiting and I hear that Carmody stays out of it, mostly. That’s amazing to me. And on balance, I would prefer someone who was more of a personality/statesman with the press, fans and recruits.
@DT: You wouldn’t be satisfied/sold until NU professors at Tech figure out a way to clone/reanimate Vince Lombardi.
I’m sick of people looking at Fitz’s past 3 years as failure, or suggesting we’re “slipping” under Fitz, simply because we failed to win any one of 3 bowl games in which we were HEAVY underdogs, or because we went from 9-3 (5-3) to 7-5 (3-5) over that time period, while having a DIFFERENT QB every year. Or because, in 2010, after losing a starting NFL-drafted QB, 2 starting WRs, a NFL drafted DE, and 3/4 of our secondary (including a NFL bound CB), we slipped ONE WHOLE GAME in overall record.
Recruiting is improved/improving (note all the freshmen making an impact this season on offense — Mark/Jones/Smith/Lawrence). Our coaching is top-notch (how else are we managing continuous bowl appearances when our recruiting/resources lags behind Illinois/Minny/Purdue/Indiana and the rest of the Big Ten?). We’re close to a huge facilities upgrade which will improve the ability to recruit/compete/prepare. Attendance is up this year, and marketing is doing its part to keep Northwestern in the mind of Chicago.
The commitment to win is there, and WE ARE WINNING. Do we want Big Ten titles? Hell yes. But we’re closer now to doing so than anytime since 1995-96 (as someone else has noted, that 2000 Big Ten title? We were 8-3 (6-2) in a MUCH weaker Big Ten than the past 3 years)….
@NU Cat 95
I agree that Fitz’s X&O’s and in game management are sometimes questionable, but how can you knock his sideline behavior? Fitz’ biggest stengths are his passion, youth, and energy. I would be very surprised if both NU players and potential recruits didn’t love how passionate and youthful he appears on the sideline. I love seeing Fitz bump chests with players after a big play – and you can’t tell me our players don’t like that kind of encouragement from their coach. So much success in football comes from the players being pumped up and excited to play – finding the extra energy to go all out on every play. Really, what kind of coach would you expect from the type of player he was in 95-96 (and I’m guessing you should know given your handle).
And yes, there are several reasons why not all coaches act like Fitz (although many do). He is one of the youngest head coaches in the country, he’s coaching at his alma mater (where he was/is a legend), he believes he’s already found his “dream job”, and he’s the face of our university after just a few seasons. There aren’t too many coaches like Fitz and I think that’s a good thing for NU.
@Chadnudj
I agree we’ve lost some players from year to year. Of course, that’s the case with every college program. You have to keep rebuilding and recruiting. All we heard from Fitz this preseason was talk that the program had more depth now than it ever did. If that were really the case, then the drop-off from losing players would not have been as significant notable as it was — especially on the defensive side of the ball.
As for QB play, you’re right. We have started a new QB each of the past three years. And I think that if we had lost games because our QB play from year to year declined (think of Texas this year with the drop-off from McCoy to Gilbert), your argument would have some merit. But I think it’s fair to say that each new QB performed at a higher level than the guy he replaced. Starting a new QB for the past three years hasn’t hampered production from that position at all. The drop-off in wins comes from failures in many other areas.
@Pres
I think we have to agree to disagree on this. While I think Fitz’s enthusiasm for Northwestern is a great thing (I personally love how he throws the “Go Cats!” in at the end of all interviews), but I think it needs to be toned down on gameday. As I said, I don’t see any other big-time winning coaches in the college game acting that way. (I think it’ll be interesting to see how Will Muschamp, who was that way as a coordinator at Texas, does or doesn’t tone that down now that he’s the head guy at Florida.)
I agree with all your points that Fitz — due to his background and his love for the program — is unlike most other coaches in America. And, in many ways (as I noted earlier), that can be a good thing for NU. But I’ve always been of the mindset that your head coach has to be controlled on the sidelines — and that it always seems to be the guys who can stay at an even keel who control things better. Can you get fired up sometimes? Sure. But Fitz runs around like he’s still playing. He’s a head coach now. He needs to act more like one, in my opinion.
@LTP
As you know, nobody wants to believe things are indeed different at NU than myself… That said, going to seek my Missouri birth roots on this subject as presented, by saying, “Show Me”… I would say, medocrity could be judged beyond W-L, and maybe, attendance might be a place to start… Let’s see for instance, how many folks are in the stands for say, EIU and Rice next year, and if it is 25K or more, you and I meet and I’ll say “I believe”…. If a barometer of Big Ten W-L is one way to evaluate this situation, both our Men’s Basketball and Football Coaches, are ASPIRING to be mediocre given the full body of their work during tenure… That said, agree to disagree.
I kinda disagree. Fitz bites his lip after a bad play. He’s not flailing his arms. It’s only when we have a good play that he’s jumping around, unless he’s yelling at the ref (which he should do). I think his sideline demeanor is VERY good.
@LookGoodInPurple
Totally agree with your assessment of when Fitz reacts. He saves all his antics for after good plays. That said, I still don’t agree with him doing it. It’s up to the head coach to keep an even keel — never getting too high or too low during a game that can produce wild mood/momentum swings — and keep his players focused on the job.
Again, just my opinion — and certainly not one that I expect everyone to agree with. I would just like to see our head coach acting more coach-like and not player-like.
@Chadnuj–
Greetings, counselor! You are correct in saying, that I’d be satisfied with a Lombardi clone, yet if the Red Raider and Wildcat scientists could collaborate on a clone/reanimation of Art Briles, Gary Patterson, Todd Graham, Paul Johnson, Bobby Petrino, June Jones, Urban Meyer, Rich Ellerson, Pat Hill, Chris Petersen, Steve Sarkisian, Al Golden, Rob Akey– or a few others that have proven expertise on one side of the football, that would suffice for now….
I’m weighing in a little late here but I’m going to agree with my fellow Williams grads Loretta (and presumably WCgrad?) – Morty Schapiro wants to win. He cares about sports (did you see him once again on the sideline at the Ticket City Bowl?), he thinks successful sports are an important factor in providing a strong sense of community at a school, and he is not going to settle for mediocre. Have you heard him speak about this? I have, as both Williams and NU president, most recently this fall when he said something to the effect that he’s always felt that if you are going to put a team on the field, you want to do everything possible to make sure it wins. I’ve also heard him speak about NU and the NCAA tourney – he cares.
@NU 95
One can debate Fitz’ style points on the sideline, technical expertise, ability to motivate, oversee adjustments, and for that matter, recruit- among other aspects that could be subject to evaluation and grade. That said, a test of character is how a man responds under fire so to speak. I have to say, Coach Fitzgerald showed both a lack of maturity and accountability in the wake of the Madison Debacle and in Dallas, first, calling fans out so to speak and fostering a circle the wagons mentality, essentially saying, he knows better after the loss to Bucky… Then, the stunt about laying the responsiblity for the future of the program in 2011– on his Junior class after the loss against Texas Tech, spewing further BS about “loving his coaches” and that players did not make plays, causes me serious concern about the fact does he truly “Get” that at the end of they day, HE is accountable for all aspects of the program he is well compensated to oversee or just that much more Coach Speak? His performance as Head Football Coach at NU, particularly the last three games, begs many of the questions and doubts folks might suggest and in all candor discuss in these type forums including those you broach… I’m not even going to touch on Carmody… Ten years, says it all…
@DT – I agree the bottom-line of W/L is the metric for success. However, as it relates to attendance, you can’t possibly pin that on the coach. Is Harbaugh not successful at Stanford? They didn’t sellout games and averaged about what we averaged and won a BCS game. The attendance falls on us. And the marketing & sales department. We as a unique fan base need to recruit others like yourself – non-NU alums who are more passionate about our team than many of the alums under the tent. Once the place is packed with 47,130 every week – in PURPLE – the fan base has much more sway power.
It’s the age old adage of Cubs fans. If they want to really impact change – don’t go to games and impact the revenue. I’ll take your bet on the 25K for EIU and Rice. I’m willing to even go a step further and say we average 30K for the 2 games. Of course, I need THIS groups help to get there. Who is going to step up and be the next to bring a new fan under the tent. The next one who does will get an LTP interview (the new fan).
I think the supposed negative impact of Fitz’s on-field enthusiasm is greatly exaggerated. It’s a non-issue. Better yet, it pisses off the BHGP crowd. That’s about as far as it goes. If we are so desperate to point fingers at Fitz that we are decrying his enthusiastic clapping, high-fiving, and raising his voice to the refs, then perhaps we need to take a step back and consider the fact that Fitz is a pretty darn good coach operating under somewhat challenging circumstances. If we had been 9-3, 10-2 or better, this conversation would be absurd. At 7-5/6 as well, it’s merely strange.
Im guessing we should all expect a post about Andrew Luck Staying… What does that mean for Harbough?
@LTP
We are covering much ground in the scope of this forum today… I’m not pinning attendance on Fitz, moreover, just commenting on another aspect or metric to judge progress on, moreover- the NU Admin’s commitment (Schapiro and the academics) and yes, the Athletic Department’s responsibility to market, what as you know I feel, is the best value– dollar for dollar, in the Chicago Trade Area– for sports….
For the record, while I may not always agree with you per this stuff, or sip the 100 proof Purple Kool Aid, in my opinion– LTP remains, the single best marketing and networking site related to NU Football and to a lesser extent, Hoops… By the way, I am going to The Indiana game on Sunday… Back at Welsh Ryan…
Really? How can you list all of the mediocre “accomplishments” that Carmody has? What matters is that he hasn’t brought the ‘Cats to the NCAA tournament. Ever. Period. 11 years-no progress. Oooooh, two NIT appearance and a first-round exit, that’s great for the program. I’m not a pessimist, or a hater, I’m just stating the facts. If Carmody doesn’t bring the Cats to the tournament in 1 or 2 years, he’s got to go.
See you there, DT.
@ Cat In The Hat…
Go Cats!
Fun debate here today, all. Enjoyed it.
According to ESPN’s Joe Schad, you can silence any Fitz to Ann Arbor talk: http://twitter.com/#!/schadjoe/status/23154165224046592
ugh, the never ending debate of how to get the people into the stadium. here’s what I know. the people who came to games via the billboards and newspaper and radio ads did not show up in Dallas. in fact, some of the usual suspect alums did not even show up. who showed up is the diehards, those really really, passionate about the team. they need to be replicated. them. supported by the Athletic Department, talked to, not just if they have lots of money, friendly, friendly, to get them to come back. there is LOTS of work to be done. we need to talk more about that. it’s not good enough to mass market. and there are LOTS of people affiliated with the University who should be at the games. it’s hard work, get to it.
@ Cece….
You make some good points, albeit I think getting new and/or more potentially dedicated folks to attend home games in the fall at Ryan Field, is different and much simpler goal than getting folks to attend a lower tier bowl game on New Years Day in Dallas… More power to you and those who did indeed attend, but, for the purposes of this site, we should all stay focused on the fact, Ryan Field attendance and home field advantage to the tune of say 30K minimum IN PURPLE per game is the holy grail! That takes place, and bowl attendance will follow or at least the probability for exists….
Go Cats!
You failed to mention that the only reason Kevin Coble isn’t back this year is because Carmody wouldn’t allow him to take his time with his rehab. Maybe Carmody felt he had someone to replace him in Shurna. A good coach would have found a way to get these two players in the same lineup.
Carmody’s job has been “charity’ as a result of Bienen buddyship. He’s truly
terrible in every respect. The pettiness with which he treated Kevin
Coble has cost him 3 games. Kevin would have allowed Shurna to sit
out and get better. Mostly,has no character or integrity. He should
go now–let Hardy coach the rest of the season.
John Franklin
What separates Fitz from most coaches is: (1) his loyalty to NU; and (2) he wants to win but not at the expense of the integrity of the program. Assume you hire one of the rising coaching stars and the new coach delivers success on a level higher than Fitz (say 95/96 level). Is that coach going to stick around long-term? Not when there is more salary, more resources, and a bigger stage elsewhere. People revere “Saint” Gary but did he deliver a consistent winner? After the two magical seasons he was under.500 for two seasons. Then he skipped town (and the teams with his recruits (1999-2001) post-departure had two losing seasons out of three.) The coaching carousel often doesn’t work for teams with unlimited resources (see Michigan and ND). At least at those schools, if you strike it big with the right coach, there is an excellent chance of the coach staying put. But at most schools, a successful coach will simply move on to a better gig.
Whatever perceived failings Fitz has as a game day coach, the program is better off long-term with him rather than anyone else.
By the way, there is an article on ESPN about recruiting that compiles dos and don’ts from the perspective of top recruits. Fitz’s recruiting follows all of the dos.
This has to be do or die. I don’t believe the “contract extension is waiting and he just has to sign it.” To me the Coble thing was the last straw. Really Bill? Really – you’re that good you dont need a 2nd team all big ten guy? He’s that much of a problem, a head case? You have to deal with some crap as a college coach – kids are immature. You cant just cut stars. Or if you want to cut stars, then sign more than one 6’10″ kid every 5 years.
I said at the beginning of the year they were a turned ankle away from being irrelevant…lo and behold…
Why has the basketball team improved the last few years? Coaching? No. Better players? Yes.
Why do we have better players? Carmody? No. Hardy? Yes.
I like Carmody personally, but he’s had his chance. He doesn’t contribute much to recruiting, he’s obviously no defensive guru and the Princeton O has somewhat limited utility. Even if the team makes the tourney this year, that doesn’t mean the program ultimately wouldn’t be more successful with somebody else. Of course, at any other major conference program and many mid-majors, he would have been gone 5 years ago.
Ringing endorsement so far tonight.
I can smell the stink of the ‘Cats from here tonight.
Also, Shurna should not be playing tonight. Let him rest his ankle at this point. He is a liability right now both to the team and to his own health.
Even the NIT is looking like a pipe dream right now.
Eleven years and no post-season wins of any kind? Fire his ass.
Agree just bench Shurna……let him get better…
18-22 from the field 6-7 from 3 land. 17-5 rebounding ………..
Didnt expect shooting like that from Ill but I did expect them to kick NU’s ass inside and win by double digits………………6-12, 5-13 in conference
Timely post, LTP. Bottom line, Carmody is:
* A mediocre, at best, recruiter
* Terrible in game coach (it seems like we always lose the close games, and we tend to blow a couple games we should win by 10+ points)
* Overrated as an X’s & O’s coach. The offense is almost entirely dependent on being hot from 3 point range. It’s like throwing deep every play in football, a la Mike Tice’s infamous “Randy Ratio”.
* Let Coble walk away. Even if Coble was more at fault than the media has portrayed, Carmody has to find a way to keep him on the team. What a waste.
I was happy when he was hired, but have been calling for his head for 4-5 years now. I would personally love if Phillips fired him after this embarrassment of a game tonight.
This game is hard to watch. Really, truly wish we still had Coble right now as with a hobbled Shurna, they’re not even trying to get the ball inside the 3-point arc.
On the coaches debate: I couldn’t agree more with @Just the Facts. Fitz is good for the school and the program long-term, and the school committing to him for the long-term allows him to build a program rather than sacrificing integrity for a hot-seat season. Coaches in that win or walk scenario rarely flourish (see Nebraska under Callahan, ND, Rich-Rod, and on and on and on…) I don’t want the team to go 6-6 next year, but even if they went 4-8 I wouldn’t consider firing Fitz. If you’re going to a run a program that recruits “character” guys and prides itself on developing outstanding young men, we as fans have to have some loyalty and character as well.
As for Carmody: he’s been in a tough spot talent-wise up until the last couple years, but does anybody really think that he’s been good at maximizing the talent he has? It’s tough to make that argument right now when his top scorer is playing at maybe 40% (due to an unnecessary injury) and his second best scorer isn’t on the team this season.
On the subject of Morty, that guy is giddy over sports. He’s very supportive of the athletic department, and more importantly, he’s a FAN. That last part cannot be undervalued. Fans don’t like to lose, and I’ve never gotten the impression he’ll just roll over and settle for mediocrity.
I thought this was a pretty fair and balanced post. Good thing you wrote it before tonight’s game… I think we’re getting real close to the Tavaras Hardy interim era. The team looks absolutely lost out there. Defensively, they have no idea what they’re doing. I’ve never been a fan of the 1-3-1 (why do you need 3 defenders 30 feet away from the basket?) but they have no idea how they’re defending a simple pick & roll. Teams can screen and create mismatches at will. This all falls on Carmody and I fully expect Dr. Phillips to pull the trigger if this team falls to 0-5 in the Big Ten next week.
1. Fire Carmody
2. Coble comes back
3. ???
4. Profit
Can’t watch the NU hoops game anymore…switching to the GoDaddy.com bowl…at least it’s a close game!
Down by 28 right now. I wouldn’t be upset if Carmody were gone tonight.
Carmody is completely useless….NCAA is a pipe dream now, and the NIT doesnt excite me one bit (not like we could win a game in the NIT anyway)
Although this game was truly sickening, and I believe it may be and probably should be the what ends the Carmody era, I sincerely hope that we do not fire him or any coach midseason just for not living up to athletic expectations. We lived through 5 years of June Olkowski and that team could lose from any position in any game. We need to learn defense. If Carmody is fired, I hope that the new coach retains Tavaris for his recruiting ties.
when does lacrosse start?
I have watched six NU games from start to finish, (best that I can do in Detroit) including a road trip to see the ‘Cats vs. MSM. I have watched them lose four of them. Carmody needs to go. There is talent there, and a better coach could get them to the tournament. I see this year and next as a brief and crucial window for this program. Carmody can not be the man in charge of this rare opportunity to be relevant in basketball.
Example of his incompetence. Kalin Lucas is at the line shooting 1 and 1 with MSU up 63-62. If he misses, grabbing that rebound is the game. Carmody keeps Shurna in to box out Draymond Green. Terrible. Even if you want Shurna for the offensive possession, put in Luka, grab the rebound and call timeout.
By the way, who is Carmody talking to as he carries on during the game? What voice inside his head is he complaining to? The same voice that says, “Be unimaginative and blow Juice Thompson’s senior year.”
Also, not such a great idea keeping Shurna in against MSM up 30+ points. It’s not like that decision has affected us during the start of Big Ten play.
But hey, at least we have those quality wins from that Italy trip to help our RPI.
Frustrating.
do you think even with a better coach RIGHT NOW it would help? NO
NU has no BIG Men worth a damn. St Johns destroyed them, Mich St did, Illinois did….Every team is going to do the same…….this team is done………..
I’m with hudhaifa3.
The problem isn’t defense, and it really isn’t offense.
Our team is composed of a group of guards and small forwards. We’re like the Phoenix Suns before they traded with Orlando.
We play small-ball. The problem is our talent level/player mix. Also, it’s not fair to pin this entirely on Carmody unless you come up with a coach that would come to Northwestern who would increase our recruiting of big men. You all saw how hard we struggled to recruit any big men worth a damn to our program.
IMO a lot of you make the mistake of equating basketball to football. This is a false equivalence. Being a Big Ten/BCS program in football makes us one of the chosen schools (especially being in a top conference). A coach that would come to Northwestern knows they can get to the Rose Bowl if they win the Big Ten or the BCS Championship if they run the table. (Obviously, it’s unlikely, but it makes Northwestern a better school to coach at than most schools out there; only around 20-30 schools are much better choices to coach at than Northwestern for football).
Basketball is a totally different animal. There’s hundreds of programs, and we have the ignomious notoriety as being the only “major” out there that hasn’t been to the NCAA Tournament. We have no built in advantages in basketball. None. For the same reason that Penn State and Nebraska are perennial doormats, we have no real advantages in basketball. This plays into our problems with recruiting balanced teams.
Right now we have a team that can play small ball and win games if it shoots lights out from the field and from behind the 3 point line. I don’t see how firing our coach is the solution unless someone has a better coach in mind. The last thing we need to do is go back to total doormat status like an Iowa or Penn State…
In other words, zeek’s new mantra is “Expect Mediocrity”
How about hiring Tim Floyd away from UTEP? The guy was an incredible coach at Iowa State and then got hosed when he took over the Bulls post-Jordan. He turned around USC overnight and the way his resignation played out there, it looked he got a raw deal. He’s a GREAT college coach and this could be the perfect place to turnaround his career.
Oh yeah, and he can do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlbhWmIMNj4
Bill Fenlon, at DePauw, winningest D2 coach ever, NU alum, class of 79, played for Tex, check his record, it’s an amazing run, always takes his teams to tournament. I know it’s a stretch to look at this level, but Fenlon with Hardy (until he moves on) might work pretty well. With that said lets hope Carmody gets Schurna healthy and gets his focus back. The last 2 minutes of MSU game was awful awful bench coaching.
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